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d'rbeh
post Jun 3 2008, 12:41 PM
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actually, if it came down to the bare basics of socialism vs. capitalism (and the subsequent care or NOT care for humanity and its future), i believe i'd opt out of the "i'm spending my children's inheritance" viewpoint in favor of equal opportunities, rights, and care for all people. i dunno, i tend to have more of a view to the future than do many who only care if they "get through life" with exactly what they want out of it.

salaam!
smile.gif

and nyrph was right. the link goes to a site suggesting that the kyoto accord is inherently flawed and dangerous somehow. and my initial point was correct - all one needs to do is recognize (or research) names who appear on petitions who are deceased or who will publicly announce they never signed any such petition. it reminds me of the Simpsons episode where they were voting for a mayor and then when Lisa examined the polls, it showed names of pets, dead presidents, etc. - all to elect (or support) a candidate.

my personal opinion is one closest to L'lee's with the caveat that when it comes to "erring on the side of caution", i'm more likely to be cautious in support of renewable, clean energy sources, and not the management of fossil fuels. after all, anything that can make a dent in the obscene multi-BILLION dollar profits of the major oil companies is O - K in my book!

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Dakro
post Jun 5 2008, 10:02 PM
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Well, we actually have 1.1% more ice than we did 100 years ago......

Also all the weather trackers up north were placed near, air ducts, steam vents, so they could say its getting hot up there, when in fact, its not.
Such as:
http://www.publiusforum.com/publiusbanners...iercliffs_3.gif

I also heard about a convention in New York, that NO mainstream media stations reported on, except CNN. Nearly 40,000 scientists attending, ALSO saying global warming is a myth.

So who should we believe, Al Gore...?

Would it be in anyway possible to question that it does NOT exist, or is it just easier to simply believe what people say? One of the main lessons taught in Book of Atrus, was don't EVER believe something simply because someone tells you so, always question.

Also bare this in mind, 30 years ago we thought we were reaching a new ice age, and we didn't.


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Kon'Dor
post Jun 5 2008, 10:38 PM
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QUOTE (Dakro @ Jun 5 2008, 11:02 PM) *
So who should we believe, Al Gore...?


I sure as heck wouldn't. The scene of the collapsing Glacier at the beginning of his movie is great. Enormous slabs of ice melting, sloughing off and falling into the sea. Dire warnings about rising sea levels etc., etc., but, although an amazing piece of film footage...... It is actually a computer graphic and does not exist at all. Ain't computer technology grand? The same scene actually appeared in another movie and was commandeered for Al's purpose.

How about our poor starving Polar Bears. Did you like the scene where the bears were reduced to a tiny floating island of ice, miles out in the ocean. Actually, that shot was taken in the summer. The ice was just barely off shore and, Polar Bears always play in/on ice floes like that. It is natural, normal and was just "creatively filmed and largely ( deliberately ) misinterpreted in order to make Al's point.

How much else in his film was created? I think Al attended the Micheal Moore School of Creative Film Making.

Lets be honest. Any film that makes a politician look and sound intelligent has got to be a fantasy. Doesn't it? laugh.gif


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UruBoo
post Jun 6 2008, 08:23 AM
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QUOTE (Kon'Dor @ Jun 6 2008, 12:38 AM) *
Lets be honest. Any film that makes a politician look and sound intelligent has got to be a fantasy. Doesn't it? laugh.gif

You are 200% right.


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Robyn
post Jun 6 2008, 09:50 AM
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A favorite tactic used by politicians, the media, gun control groups, businesses and many others with their own agenda, is to simply, "Repeat the lie often enough and loud enough, and many people will accept it as TRUTH." bash.gif

Inconvenient facts have no place in these arguments. Just repeat the lies even louder to try to drown out the voices that don't agree, and twist or manufacture the data to "prove" your conclusions. shhh.gif

Frankly, I don't have enough "trusted data" on the global warming issue to draw a definite conclusion. We do know that man is quite capable of altering local climates, i.e., the micro climates around cities. It's also very possible, for example, that the Pre-Columbian civilizations in Central America changed their local climate through massive deforestation, leading to drought and collapse. (One current theory...) But, we also know that there have been fairly substantial differences in temperature just in the last few thousand years of recorded history, sometimes lasting only a few years, sometimes for decades. If the reports I've seen about things like greater melting recently of the polar ice caps on Mars are correct, this would seem to indicate that at least some warming is due to an increase in solar activity, not anything we're doing...

I'm not saying that we shouldn't be working to limit the production of greenhouse gases, but it's not time to panic and cut our own throats to do it. My own feeling at the moment is that the global warming problem is more one of hype rather than reality.


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albert
post Jun 6 2008, 10:30 AM
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"there are 2 types of people in the world, religous and scientist. the first base his life on the blind belief, the second on the study and experience. The philosopher belongs to the two types, science enabled him to acquire faith and religion has allowed him to temper abuse" smile.gif

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racegirl
post Jun 6 2008, 02:13 PM
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QUOTE (Robyn @ Jun 7 2008, 02:50 AM) *
I'm not saying that we shouldn't be working to limit the production of greenhouse gases, but it's not time to panic and cut our own throats to do it. My own feeling at the moment is that the global warming problem is more one of hype rather than reality.

Agreed.


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Nyrphame Danilai...
post Jun 7 2008, 02:48 PM
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Well it is really time to weigh in here. I personally don't care if carbon emissions create global warming or not, but I do care that they create unbreathable air. You are living in a fool's paradise if you live in North America. Try living next door to China, where I do now, and where just short months ago, the total annual emissions exceeded those of the US for the first time in history (the US being the heretofore largest producer of said gases in the world). It is a scientific fact that the annual "blue sky" days (ie days where you can actually see the sky because there is no airborne pollution) have dimished here in Hong Kong every year and now number about 5, I kid you not.

I would say US signing of any accord to diminish its own emissions is now a moot point. China's asendancy comes in the main from its enormous manufacturing growth which comes, in the main, from the fact that North America and European manufacturing has been outsourced to China. It also comes from the fact that as China becomes more affluent (due to the fact that manufacturing, and etc, and etc.), more and more Chinese people are able to afford cars. There are 1000 new cars on the road in China every single day. A full third of all the drivers on the road are brand new drivers within the past three years. China, that a scant few years ago produced most of its own oil, now it imports most of it due to its enormous growth in demand. Any guesses where those high oil and gas prices you are seeing are coming from? Speculators, yes, but what in fact are they speculating on as they drive up the prices on the futures markets? I am sorry to say you ain't seen nothing yet.

In an interesting twist, China is actually a signator of the Kyoto protocol, but will be quite persistent in asking for concessions as it moves from an underdeveloped nation to a developed one. Who is going to tell them they are not allowed to try to acheive the life-style enjoyed by every North American? The US? A non-signator? That is going to be tricky.

I do not need a scientist to tell me whether or not these emissions are harmful or helpful as I breath them in every day to my detriment. Yes, they may be in fact helpful to the Earth's environment as the petition seems to suggest, and they may certainly support and encourage some lifeforms, they are just not particularly good for humans. Of course, if you are not human, or don't intend to be so for very long, this will not concern you.

squish to all. end of rant.

nerfy

This post has been edited by Nyrphame Danilaise: Jun 7 2008, 02:56 PM


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d'rbeh
post Jun 9 2008, 04:34 PM
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i always love "discussions" about the environment that somehow stray to involve those who are not particularly champions of the cause. to bring up the names of any filmmaker as somehow fuel to add to the weight of one's opinion is simply ludicrous. it's so telling how these issues come around somehow to "celebrities" : al gore was never mentioned in the original post and neither was michael moore.

so, let's allow people not involved directly in this topic to remain outside the topic.

any number of "authorities" could be found to support either side of the global warming issue. what's REALLY sad is that it would take some special accord or treaty or something else to motivate or urge people to conserve energy, keep a clean environment and to plan for the future. the last i knew, and i doubt this has changed, is that oil is a non-renewable energy source. and it doesn't take a social scientist, a historian or a sociologist to understand how much the lust for oil has tainted relationships between countries around the world. knowing that, and aside from the global warming aspect that may or may not be attributed to mankind, everyone should be doing everything in his power to keep a clean planet.

there are two basic philosphies, like i stated above: use everything up, and to heek with any future generations, or conserve and act wisely to make sure that there are enough resources for future generations to utilize; here and now, or future; come visit my nice clean house that i have kept tidy, or come visit my hovel, where i throw trash at random, leave dirty clothes piled in heaps and empty pizza cartons festering in the corners of the rooms. two opposing ways of life. i think for future generations, people would much rather move into the house that was kept tidy - they'd probably have to demolish the other house, but HECK, it was FUN while we were living there - it's just now that we're gone, nobody else can use it because it's so toxic.

why would it take something so frightening as global warming (and certain implications are truly frightening) to motivate anyone to conserve? what nyrph stated about china resonates deeply with me, because having just come from turkey, and the beautiful country that it is, the areas east of istanbul along the bosphorus out past izmit are so grossly polluted that we could hardly breathe traveling through those areas. luckily, that is all downwind (most of the time) from istanbul proper. the USA is not the only country who contributes to declining worldwide atmosphere, but we are among the most cavalier in our attitude about consuming non-renewable energy sources - for our standing in the worldwide population, we consume far FAR more than our fair share of natural resources. at some point, it will come to a crashing end; but only if we continue to cultivate the idea of use use use use use without a care in the world for what it does to the environment.

so for me, the obvious reality of global warming (irregardless of whose fault it is - nature's or mankind's mismanagement of nature) is not so much a motivator to conserve and clean up the environment as much as i can, but it's a reminder as to what can happen should mankind be left unchecked to use up and pollute as much as he wishes. if global warming is to be a reality, come what may, regardless of how clean mankind keeps the earth, at least then we can say that we didn't contribute to it. very few people on earth can say that any more.

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racegirl
post Jul 10 2008, 12:10 AM
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Burn a tyre, save the planet!

Finally! Someone with a handle on the whole climate change thing! Certainly something to think about....


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d'rbeh
post Jul 10 2008, 05:22 PM
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this person does indeed have "a" handle on the climate change thingy.

from what i understand, dimming is actually beneficial for global warming, for obvious reasons.
unfortunately, what most people fail to mention is that only particulate pollution contributes to global dimming.
the vast majority of current pollution is chemical rather than particulate matter - which could explain why some cities have less visible particulate pollution yet more chemical pollution (case in point is Los Angeles - back in the 60s and 70s, you literally could not see for the smog from particulate pollution - it has lightened up a great deal in recent years; however, the amount of carbon monoxide and ozone has skyrocketed. i assume this is true in many major cities in america)

so, should we all start burning coal and firewood again? tires would be another answer - however, there are vast amounts of dangerous chemicals also released with the particulate "smoke".


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racegirl
post Jul 10 2008, 06:20 PM
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laugh.gif I forgot the bleh.gif emote after my post.

A lot of what he says bears thinking about though - especially in terms of the money-making efforts of those on the climate change bandwagon.


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Nyrphame Danilai...
post Jul 10 2008, 07:51 PM
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Having worked with traders for a good part of my adult life and having a short stint as one myself I can attest to the fact that they would be trading grandmothers if there was a profit in it. (One day i will tell you the story that epitomizes this, about company Christmas party tickets. smile.gif ) Long before there was any ink dry on Kyoto, they were already discussing among themselves the potential inherent in emission credits.

They will be on any bandwagon - that doesn't mean, in my opinion that anyone should stop trying to get countries to control their emissions. Even if emission credits are traded the net result will be modestly beneficial. Still, an even better idea is to get them on the bandwagon for schemes that are highly beneficial. The real problem for me with emissions credit trading is that it results in corporations externalizing harm - in this case to the countires (and their citizens) who benefit in the short term from their presence.

This is why I think focussing on the PRICE of oil is a foolish thing as a motivator and an end. The price of anything that is going to be overwhelmingly used as fuel is going to rise accordingly.

The trick is to get companies to take responsibility for their "externalities" - really, the only way to do that is to get them to see that responsibility as profitable in some way.

For a great documentary on how corporations are inherently stuctured as externalizing machines, see "The Corporation".


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d'rbeh
post Jul 11 2008, 03:29 PM
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here here!

and i for one would rather spend/waste money on something that is good for the planet than something that is not.

and i never believed there should have ever been any such thing as "credits" for companies. this enables the companies to merely keep polluting at a cost.

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